Can any human domestication guide fans confirm whether this is accurate?
Anyone unironically saying “benevolent slavery” should be shot benevolently
Dumbasses acting like slavers don’t always say “it’s for their own good”
tbf, that book is just wank material, i think slavery in there should be seen through the lens of BDSM and kink.
Because fascists aren’t horny types?
I’m not saying your individual kinks translate perfectly to your beliefs but it certainly reveals something about a person, and when you’re talking on and on about slavery on a societal level you’re making a political statement whether you intend to or not.
If it was just about bedroom roleplay it’d be a story about individuals, not empires.
it’s just a very horny science fiction.
where aliens take care of us, give us drugs to keep us happy and have sex with us.
if in the future it is revealed that the author indeed intended to make it fascist, then that’s one thing. this thing just seems to be someone’s horny fantasy, not fascist ideology.
I’d rather fight actually regressives than a plant furry armed with bad dragons.
wait, it’s an actual book? I need to read this! what’s the author and title?
Yes, ish, I think it is called Human domestication guide, there is a lot of fan fiction about it, and I am not sure if there is a core canon besides this
perusing the wiki, and this looks suspiciously like something that I’ve been working on for the past couple months. I’ve been scooped! Again!
I think I’m going to have a great time reading it tho
i think it’s older than a “few months”. enjoy your read.
as a horny submissive fiction it’s fine. don’t try to read political ideology from it, unlike some people in this thread.
I hope you don’t think I’m saying it uncritically. I’m saying the affini are interesting characters to use to explore the ethics of slavery, because you can portray all of the fascist excuses and propaganda in a somewhat plausible setting, and then one by one deconstruct them and interrogate why audiences are attracted to these horrific dynamics.
That’s the kind of thing I like to see in my 40k porn.
the problem is that even it gets horny, I don’t care about ideology, I’ll be… distracted
Oh my g-d just let me fantasize about a universe where I don’t have to go to work in the morning and someone gives a fuck about my wellbeing and I don’t have to pay through the nose for gender affirming care in peace.
Why you gonna ask for all that, and then also add in an uncritical reproduction of the white settler benevolent slavery myth?
I kinda get it, because slavery is hot, but if you’re putting slavery in a story you’ve gotta examine it critically. You can’t have all of the fascist apologia and none of the left wing perspectives, otherwise you’re a fascist too. You gotta admit the affini are fascists and interrogate why you want to be a fascist’s property.
Are you sure? They definitely could be seen as an empire, but I don’t know about fascist. They economically speaking have communism in the compact. In fact they appropriate all the billionaires toys and redistribute as needed.
People I think are forgetting that slavery and fascism aren’t the same thing. Not even close. It’s also not the case that this is traditional slavery, they don’t take florets for economic reasons and most are volunteers.
They economically speaking have communism in the compact
Communism is stateless. You cannot have a communist economy where an elite class controls the means of production. That’s feudalism or state capitalism.
They literally do not have money in the compact. The work in the compact is done by the same people who control and own the means of production. Namely the Affini do most of the work and the Affini own most of the production. There are some xenosophonts who produce, and they control that production in some cases. I am not sure you have actually read much HDG at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
Communism (from Latin communis ‘common, universal’)[1][2] is a political and economic ideology whose goal is the creation of a communist society, a socioeconomic order centered on common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange that allocates products in society based on need.[3][4][5] A communist society entails the absence of private property and social classes,[1] and ultimately money[6] and the state.
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The means of production are not owned by the community, they’re owned by the Affini
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If an elite group controls it, it’s private, not public.
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Affini are a privileged social class.
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Affini are a state.
In 1950s America, men owned the means of production and did the productive work. Women (if married) were given free sustenance, but no control over the means of production, little right to work, and fundamentally no freedoms. It’s not communism if you have an underclass with no ownership of the means of production and no right to participate in the politics of the nation. Doesn’t matter if that underclass is women, black people, or all humanity, and doesn’t matter what kind of economics the ruling class practice between themselves.
The Affini are basically Israel. They steal all your planet’s land and natural resources, commit war crimes against anyone who rebels, and call themselves woke because it’s safe to be gay and white in Tel Aviv. Look at all the equality between the ruling race!
Independent xenosophonts do have political rights and means of production are collectively owned and managed. It’s only florets that don’t have political rights. In some cases florets have say over means of production as well, at least the ones that actually do any production as many don’t work at all. Affini can also be florets. Again I don’t think you have actually read that much HDG. You could argue that florets are an underclass. However most florets are also volunteers and have some very explicit rights in the story. In fact Affini are bound by those rights to look after florets more than they look after independents or each other. I really don’t think you can compare the Affini to Israel who are doing a genocide given the Affini avoid killing at all costs and respect local languages and even traditions provided they aren’t harmful.
Yes the Affini compact would not at all work in real life and anyone who tried it would end up committing some form of abuse. I am not trying to argue it’s realism here. You are however completely and seemingly deliberately ignoring what it actually is and how it’s described by the various authors.
I’m not talking about florets, I’m talking about everyone who isn’t Affini. No civilization is permitted to self-govern without Affini interference.
Once the Affini Compact becomes aware of a civilization, their domestication is inevitable. Generally speaking, while there are no civilizations more advanced than the Compact, even such precursor cultures would be unable to resist the Affini indefinitely
When a species accepts the Compact, they tend to have much more of a say in the running of their society afterward — but even these cultures will be altered by domestication, and the Compact will still be there with a firm hand on the wheel afterward, just in case. Species that resist domestication, like Terrans did, don’t get much of a say in how things are run — a species that fights back needs much more correction, from the Affini perspective, than one that willingly joins the Compact.
Basically, you’re free to self-govern as a vassal of the compact as long as you do what you’re told and don’t want independence. That’s not freedom. That’s not political rights. That’s abuse. Guess what, black slaves who did what their masters told them were treated better too, but that doesn’t mean they had freedom.
I have little experience with HDG, but I’m afraid you have little understanding of what communism and freedom mean, and that’s far more important. So far we have not disagreed on the facts of the fiction. We’ve only disagreed on the facts of political systems and ethics.
I do in fact believe the Affini are entirely benevolent. They are also wrong. They are monsters who mean well.
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and interrogate why you want to be a fascist’s property
Because under capitalism not having one’s needs met is viewed as moral failure, we have little agency but are told that we do, and trans people are generally reviled. Thus, fantasies about having ones needs met, being stripped of agency in such a way that it is clearly not a failing on our own part and being able to express and be viewed as an object of desire without shame are attractive. Bodice-ripper type beat.
Those goals are perfectly achievable by writing Culture fanfiction. You can write about a communist society where everyone is completely free and has all the agency they want, where trans people are completely normal and people who get to their 200th birthday without at least trying a sex change are seen as primitive.
The fact that some people want to achieve those things with slavery and imperialism is deeper than that. And the fact they don’t want to talk about why they want it that way is sus.
Is there much culture fan fiction? Now I am intrigued.
Here is a fanfic that gives me the warm fuzzies. It’s about the best most communist space civ meeting the worst most fascist one. The power differential isn’t anywhere near close, but what gives the fic stakes is the Culture’s ethics. They do not under normal circumstances kill, indoctrinate, or enslave, unlike some people. Can the ultimate commies reform the ultimate fascists and fix their horrible galaxy? And can they do so without being corrupted?
https://archiveofourown.org/works/649448?view_full_work=true
Or maybe multiple works/bodies of work can exist and demanding everything meet some standard of ideological purity is a boring way of engaging with the world. I read the original because of the memes, it was kinda comforting in some ways, a little off putting in others, overall a worthwhile use of the time spent. It’s not any deeper than that to me.
Further evidence to support that communists are just fascists with a submission kink
Well I’m a communist and I don’t have a submission kink. I believe in collective ownership of the means of production. We should have a classless, moneyless, stateless society with a gift economy, where goods are organised from each according to ability, to each according to need.
Eh its a stereotype joke anyways lol
Because appropriating imperialism and slavery as a white person to make yourself the slave (excuse me, I meant “floret”) is despicable and just a revival of the benevolent slave owner myth
as a white person
Wrong.
I’m reading it now, I’ll let you know after I’m deeper in.
You look interesting. Have you read Glitch by Jenna Moran? It’s an RPG about retired void gods.
Now that looks interesting, imma have to look into that
So, I’m 6 chapters in, and I’m horrified, aroused, intrigued, and inspired to make one of the factions in my own writing infinitly worse.
Too early to make an opinion on if the work actually has a point to make or not.
I’ve finished the original work, all fifteen chapters of it. Final verdict on the politics: This isn’t a political piece. Any political themes are just set dressing for the plot. It’s cosmic/psychological/body horror all wrapped into one, with a hint of lewdity. Honestly, I’m disappointed. However, how fucking evil the affini faction is is kinda inspiring to make my own sexy alien cosmic horror faction even worse than I’ve already wrote them. Overall, worth the couple hours I spent on it.
Are these writings primarily literary narratives (as in meant to convey a story) or are they mainly fetish material?
Like some Omegaverse stuff is serious writing that explores gender politics, etc. alongside men going into heat, but mostly it’s just like “Wouldn’t it be hot if my boyfriend’s dad and his friends r’d me out in the woods?” You can’t really evaluate it seriously when it’s just porn.
I look at porn for the plot. I can’t cum if the plot is bad.
I don’t know if you have watched the show or read the books but I think you would really enjoy Killing Eve fanfics
I don’t know what you’d prefer for the sub’s gender, but the only dommy mommy fiction I can recommend is Unnatural Magic by C.M. Waggoner. It’s a great story with good world-building, and it’s very political. The sequel (which I don’t think is actually a direct sequel) seems to have a female/female pairing, but I haven’t read it yet.
“and to goon to” is listed as a secondary reason, but I assure you that it is the primary reason while being a plot device is secondary at best.
See, I knew that when I first heard of them months ago, but just today I learned apparently the Affini aren’t the protagonists? Apparently it’s against the wiki rules to write stories about Affini culture and politics, because their whole society outside of the florets is noodle incidents?
I assumed the Affini were nuanced and relatable characters because I need to understand someone’s internality in order to goon to them, but apparently the fanbase is all submissives who don’t like to think about politics?
I gotta say, if that’s the case I prefer the Culture a million times more. Minds keep humans as pets but also have political intrigues going on that the story is actually about. And they can still be hot!
That can’t be right. I know there some are HDG stories that deal with politics. No Gods No Masters would be an example, though they deal more with human politics than Affini politics. Maybe Sui Generis or Affini Domestication Guide? The latter being one of the few that deals directly with Affini getting domesticated.
https://humandomestication.guide/canon-guidelines/AxiomsRulesLore
Affini, as individuals, are flawed and capable of making mistakes. Systemic mistakes, on the other hand, are vanishingly rare
If you give the Affini a surface-level examination, they look pretty awful, but when an abusive human says “it’s for your own good,” it’s an excuse. It’s a deflection. It’s a way to justify what they’re doing to you. When the Affini say it, it’s true.
The Affini Are Imperialist
they cannot allow sophonts to govern their affairs independently as it would lead to suboptimal outcomes (It doesn’t hurt, of course, that it puts them in a position to adopt new florets. This is, as far as they’re concerned, a pretty nice bonus).
The rules say the slavers are good and nice and you can’t arrive at any other conclusion if you’re an HDG writer.
So yeah, you can write politics into your HDG story, if and only if you’re a pro-slavery imperialist.
I guess that makes sense. Although you should know that canonically being a floret is not the same as being a slave.
you’ve just compared a series of critically acclaimed novels to ao3 original, have some shame
Hey, I’ll have you know fetish fanfics and community writing projects can be amazing. Look at SCP’s Antimemetics Division, or… um… well I want to give an example of the former but I don’t want to make my kink list known to lemmy…
But anyway, if HDG writers can spend 10 hours worldbuilding a feminine plant penis but draw the line at portraying the character doing her job… well I’m afraid the transbians have re-invented misogyny. Fetishising a character whose internal world you refuse to explore is what men have been doing to women for the past 3000 years. We’re just reducing dominant women to sex objects instead of all women this time.
all i’m saying, i won’t be taking reading recommendations from 196 chat from now on
Don’t forget they recreated benevolent colonial slave owners too, and made themselves the slaves. The white transfems. It’s almost hilarious how pathetically clueless it is
I would think if I were a sub, I would want dommes in my community writing hot stories for me. Subs need doms. They should try to welcome dommes into the community.
Subs who hate politics writing domme characters who are only ever portrayed interacting with their subs is… well I can’t possibly believe how that would actually be a gratifying story. In my experience, sex is way more fun when your partner enjoys it too.
As a sub, the thing you need to understand is that a lot of subs are bad at it. It’s easy to give power up to some theoretical person who will do whatever you fantasize about without any of the guilt of asking for it or reciprocating what they want.
Including dommes introduces room for conflict, it introduces room for failure on both parts, it introduces room for you to feel bad that some of what you want is effort for your partner and that your partner may want some stuff that you may not necessarily want. It’s vulnerability.
The “do-me sub” is a perennial complaint in actual kink communities. They drive off dommes, especially dominant women who aren’t as comfortable saying no (and some don’t bother listening to nos). They often come from online fantasy spaces filled with kink from exclusively submissive perspectives and they often make femdom spaces uncomfortable.
If anything though, the existence of a rule means there was a perceived need for one. Often online kinks like this have no such rule because nobody has burst their bubbles by telling stories about dommes dealing with illness or workplace discrimination or being harassed by the cops and how that would impact a d/s dynamic. No they’re little worlds of minor kings and queens, escapist fantasies in which every dominant is perfectly in control and perfectly in tune with their sub. This rule means that the target audience saw this and wanted to tell stories of politics, of the struggles of aliens attempting to keep an extremely high maintenance pet happy, but unwilling to consider freeing it.
It’s so fucking ironic that these subs want someone to tell them what to do, but in practice, they make up a fake dom who only ever tells them to do what they already want. What’s the point of having the fake dom in the story if the sub is still in charge? It’s just like you say, they’re bad subs. They misunderstood the point, and want all of the power with none of the responsibility.
In a consensual relationship doms should only be telling subs to do things they consent to of those, but that’s not what HDG is! This is a sex slavery story! Fucking missing the point is what this is. If you want a perfect smart mummy to take complete control of you, why are you in complete control of her, not even doing her the dignity of writing her character with plausible motivations and nuance? Characters can take on a life of their own in a work of fiction, but I’m getting the sense very few HDG writers allow that to happen.
This is so disappointing.
The Affini are just Rogue Servitors from Stellaris but plants instead of robots. I love playing as Servitors and collecting aaalllllll the little pets~
Benevolent slavery?! Wtf does that mean!?!
Human Domestication Guide is a collaborative writing project about alien plant dommy mummies who keep human pets and do lots of imperialism, but nice. Instead of killing political dissidents, they use mind control pheromones and forcefem them
I know what HDG is, but I fundamentally don’t agree that its form of slavery should be explored in a nuanced or realistic way. It stinks of the exact same paternalistic cultural imperialism that has been applied to countless cultures throughout history. The desire to take control away from people because “you know better” is still genocidal. It goes hand in hand with the genocide that sees people slaughtered in cold blood to this very day.
I actually prefer HDG only being about the kink of getting mindbroken by aliens. I have nothing against people being into those things, but I do have a problem with people taking the setting of HDG seriously. Sexual fantasy is only fine when it keeps clear separation from reality, so by keeping it unserious it can be explored in a safe way.
Not being able to look past those real world undertones is what kept me from enjoying HDG. The implication that the alien’s involuntary intimacy was a good thing made me nope out. Getting so close to the line that people do take it seriously is why I don’t fuck with it.
I haven’t read any HDG yet. I was planning to at some point, but after hearing they try to avoid writing about politics, I’ve lost interest. Science fiction has always been political, and it needs to be taken seriously. We can’t be treating slavery uncritically, even in kink, or we become accustomed to destructive ways of thinking. We should use science fiction as a tool to look within ourselves from a new perspective, and develop our ideas of right and wrong. If we’re into bondage and pet play, then we should use science fiction to examine what that kink means to us and come to understand ourselves better.
I like The Culture. Culture Minds keep humans as pets, but more like free range cats than like dogs. The humans have absolute freedom to stay or go as they please, and are treated like small and weak equals, not property. It’s definitely not slavery, it’s anarcho-communism.
The problem with a political interpretation of HDG is that it’s at odds with the fantasy escapism of being tamed by a plant monster that wants what’s best for you.
Fundamentally, the Affini are bad. Their ideology is rotten and hypocritical and in real life it would not work out the way it does on the page. If you try to think about the political implications of HDG at all you will inevitably run into that. “Benevolent slavery” simply isn’t a thing.
But there’s plenty of fiction that explores evil empires, the point of HDG is to have fun with the kinky idea of “what if a hot plant turned me into a pet?” Exploring the politics of the situation inevitably detracts from the fantasy of it being benevolent.
I have more fun having sex with a person than a doll. Well, except for dollgirls, but that’s another conversation. People are political creatures. Take the politics out of a person, and a doll is what you get. How can a plant be hot if she isn’t a nuanced individual? If a plant is turning me into a pet, she better exist as an individual (or a hivemind, I’ll admit) situated within a cultural context, with an internal world and life experiences. Otherwise what’s the point? You might as well tie yourself up for all the masturbatory character of the act!
The HDG fandom somehow found a way to take the doms out of domination, and it’s as soulless as AI art
Also I personally like politics, thought, and implications in my kink. ABO has managed to create deeply political stories within their porn to the point that one of their fundamental plots is political. They created a secondary sex system to write porn without the specter of misogyny and then wrote in a new misogyny which enabled them to analyze it from distance. That’s cool
Like yeah give some fluffy cozy kink. But also tell stories about the agony of being forced to make the correct choices or about how sometimes they will make the wrong choices. Show me conflict between humans who are gratefully subjugated vs those who choose freedom even at pain. Use it as an opportunity to talk about the stuff we do to our pets because it’s more convenient for us and they can’t say no. Have humans who aren’t domesticated and show a plant bring her pet human onto the equivalent of a federation starship and show the complicated emotions of everyone involved (ok tempted to actually write something like that).
Have a no politics tag if you must, but I find this deeply ironic that they write porn of domesticating humans and reject the freedom to use it as anything more than the thoughtless fetishization of docility.
Scathing but true
Thanks, I’m just mad. They take a perfectly good premise for science-smut exploring the ethical ramifications of slavery under novel circumstances, and then they ruin it by giving it the JK Rowling treatment! Admit the ladies you’re wanking off to are fascists, you cowards! I jerk off to 40k porn and don’t feel bad about it, because I’m a fucking adult who can separate ethical from hot.
There’s a certain kind of queer person I despise, because they respond to the horrors of the world by creating a “perfect” bubble world which is just as fucked up as the real one, it’s just horrific in a way that plays into their trauma reactions and only hurts people in ways they feel are deserved. And their smut sucks ass. Anyway, that’s the plot of WandaVision.
There are stories in HDG written from an Affini perspective. There are stories of very imperfect Affini as well, including those who get forcibly domesticated for their own good or to prevent harm to others. In real life the politics of the Affini compact probably wouldn’t hold up, but given these things are genetically engineered aliens with different drives to humans it’s hard to really know.
I don’t think HDG can be both serious science fiction and kink. Kink can indulge in portrayals of sexual assault or abuse that would never be ok in science fiction. That does not mean it is uncritically exploring those topics, but allowing readers to sublimate their own experiences into the story. People can explore fears like threats of genocide or loss of autonomy in a safe and controlled manner.
I don’t know much about The Culture, but calling it anarcho-communism doesn’t follow from what you describe. The humans might be able to come and go as they please, but do they have any say in the order that affects them? A pet in the real world might live a post scarcity life while their humans live in a capitalist dystopia. Is there dangerous infrastructure that can accidentally kill the pet or roaming threats? Is it just one upper class area where the pets are treated well, or is are they safe throughout the entire society? Are there bad owners, or is every alien just magically good to their pet?
Long rant about domestication:
Also, the idea of dogs not being able to live free range like cats is a myth. The majority of dogs on earth are not domesticated, while I’ve personally met domesticated dogs who roamed freely. Dingos were brought to Australia by people and became more independent with time, but for a real chunk of time they were more village dogs rather than wild animals. I currently know a dog that was given to a group of people as a puppy by her wild mother so she could live a better life.
The line between a pet and a wild animal is permeable rather than a clear cut distinction. The animals we are closest to did not get plucked up by people and made into pets, but gradually grew closer to humans through a process of natural selection that favored those who could better survive beside us. We coexist so well through natural processes, not eugenics or mind control.
The plant mommies came to earth and forced people to be their pets rather than give them the choice to be pets. A more grounded version would see humans gradually becoming pets because it was the best option rather than by the aliens turning those that fight them the hardest into slaves.
The more fundamental problem with HDG is how its entire understanding of domestication is based on an outdated worldview that assumes humans have more control than they do. The very idea is rooted in eugenics and imperialism. I doubt it’s even possible to detangle HDG from authoritarianism.
Calling the Culture anarchocommunism is somewhat accurate. Humans do have say in what goes on in the Culture, there are humans in high ranking roles in the Culture making decisions. Humans aren’t pets in the Culture, and Minds don’t own humans. Humans are only pets in the sense that Minds are superintelligent AI that largely do all the work to run society while humans live post-scarcity easy lives, but they are ostensibly equals.
Here’s some background from the author: http://www.vavatch.co.uk/books/banks/cultnote.htm
HDG is kind of like what anti-Culture propaganda portrays the Culture as, but more rapey.
Sometimes someone will ask a Rapid Offensive Unit why it, a fully automated warship, keeps a human crew. Many ROUs don’t, but those who do say that having humans around is nice. They’re good company on long voyages, and fun at parties. Fellow Minds contacted over hyperspace comm channels may make for faster and more erudite conversational partners, but there’s just something nice about having a bunch of little guys inside you. Humans are always up to something interesting.
That makes more sense. I just wasn’t familiar with The Culture or the story they’re a part of.
A more grounded version would see humans gradually becoming pets because it was the best option rather than by the aliens turning those that fight them the hardest into slaves.
That’s what I thought HDG was before today! That’s what I wanted, not apolitical subslop. I’ve been seriously misled by my friend who’s into this fandom!
Also, the name sucks. A human domestication guide would be a resource for affini. The name implies an affini point of view. I was so shocked when I learned florets are almost always the point of view character and there’s nothing in this setting for people who want to keep humans as pets. What’s the point of the name then!
