I too am upset Rust dropped Linux support a few years ago and never developed the Vulkan graphics engine they had promised. I understand the anticheat issues but still, it’s a fun game. Figure it out, Facepunch.
I was very confused there for a second
I dunno man, I play Rust on Linux all the time.
Can’t do anticheat, but I would have disabled that anyway
Really? I might have to boot up Steam and try it again. Nice, thanks! You use Wine or something to run it?
The built in Steam Proton version, yes. I’m currently using 9.0
Keep in mind that without anticheat you can’t get into the official servers. I host my own
Well played
No quams with wayland or rust, but snap packages, those things annoy me greatly.
The most annoying thing about snaps is it’s so unnecessary. Why go to the effort of supporting that when snap exists?
Yeah, at least use Flatpac.
I’m cool with AppImage as well, they just work.
I used a daemon to manage my AppImages, worked great until fairly recently where it began mounting way too many FUSEs and just make AppImages stop working altogether. I miss it, because now I have to manually manage the AppImages, and that makes me sad. :(
I’m lazy.
i use Gear Lever it’s alright for managing appimages
I’ll give it a whirl! Thank you!
Also there’s AM in case that one doesn’t work out.
Thank you! I did actually spend some time yesterday setting up some AppImages with Gear Lever, and so far it seems alright. The update feature seems very neat.
I might give AM a whirl on my laptop though!
I find snaps quite useful for CLI apps, I’m curious what annoys you about them.
And yes I understand that the backend not being open source is an issue, but it’s not that important imo. Flathub, for example, could change the code on their backend without notice and screw us over.
Ubuntu is owned by a billionair who is calling himself self appointed dictator, they have a long history of forcing their technologies down their users throats ignoring all concerns of the community, which is why it got way less popular and is now mainly doing b2b
I’m curious what annoys you about them
if you write apt install firefox on ubuntu, the snap version is installed.
You can use flatpaks without ever touching Flathub.
Wait, guys, are we over systemd already?
No.
Time to rewrite systemd in rust. I don’t have time to hate them individually /s
Those that work professionally with the stuff - since years.
Man, I really don’t understand what the issues with Wayland are. Granted, I’m new here and a pretty basic user so there’s some underlying issue that seems to be breaking people’s setups, I guess I just haven’t encountered it. I went from using Mint for like a month before I switched to Arch. And I only did that because my second screen was acting goofy on Mint and I figured in for a penny in for a pound, let’s see why people are so afraid of this distro and haven’t had any serious issues in the past two years.
For most ”laymen” Wayland works just fine. I prefer Wayland because it has proper support for fractional scaling, which is a must for monitors with higher resolution than 1080p.
I prefer Wayland because I use a 2-in-1 ThinkPad. No thanks X11, I don’t want a click on touch mouse pointer.
???
You cant configure your way around that?
Or maybe I’m completely misunderstanding what you mean by “click on touch mouse pointer”.
I’m not understanding why X11’s not wanted with a thinkpad. I’ve had various thinkpads (penabled, multi-touch, and no-touchscreen), since (iirc) 2007ish, and had no troubles.
What’s wayland doing for you? What’s the problem with X11?
I only have experience with Plasma, but on X11 when I tap on the screen, it emulates a mouse click where I tap. And it also does when I swipe my finger, like holding a clicked mouse and moving the pointer. And gestures don’t work, though I think that one can be fixed.
Wayland just works. When I want to select text, press and hold like on a phone. When scrolling something, I just swipe it like on a phone (except for LibreOffice, that one is an absolute mess on Wayland). Especially nice with drawing programs. Stylus acts just like what I described with finger on X11 - it controls mouse pointer.
In effect this means that with fingers I can move around and zoom, while with stylus I can draw or select text.And then GTK 4.20 breaks Rnote and I can only use it via Xwayland…
Anyway, for a touchscreen device, I had more luck with Wayland.
Interesting. Thanks.
I just tried that on my multitouch X220T, and at first, it worked fine, no click, able to move cursor… but then somehow I lost the knack…
I guess I don’t use my touchscreens enough for it to matter to me.
When drawing, I typically pull out my proper wacom. Otherwise it’s nearly all trackpoint or mouse.
A must…?
I had two monitors at 1600x2560 and one at [(various resolutions, usually at)] 800x1280… for near a decade, with no wayland. What’s this “must” and “proper support for fractional scaling” I didnt have and thus was doing it wrong? :3
Every time I’ve tried ”fractional scaling” on X11 it’s just a blurry mess. Like as if it renders at a lower resolution and then scales it up by 125%. I don’t want all my text and icons to be tiny without having to configure every single application I’m using (with mixed results).
With Wayland it’s sharp even with 125% scaling.
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Wayland has been around for many many many many more years than Wayland has been good enough to use. I think that’s about it.
I think that’s mostly it. When Wayland was first released, it was barely in an alpha state, with many major use cases not being supported at all. Since Wayland is a deep system component, it requires apps to adjust to them, and in the beginning this hadn’t happened at all so far, so really nothing worked.
And this didn’t change over night. That easily took a decade, and still today some use cases still don’t work well (e.g. accessibility/screen reader compatibility).
Arch is definitely the most stable and usable distro for me as well.
Words rarely seen in this arrangement.
I’d been a windows user since the DOS / 3.1 days and converted to Linux maybe 2~ years ago. I’ve found that I’m able to tailor the desktop experience (on desktop / laptop) to exactly what I need. No shitware getting in the way or annoying bundled programs.
My laptop has decent battery life and standby gives me no issues, perfect in my eyes.
I can’t stand windows anymore, and I’m not one to lash out and buy a macbook to just experience another desktop enviornment / user experience.
Admittedly there isnt any professional use just browsing / games with some codium usage.
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My issue with Wayland is just that not everything supports it. I tried switching to Wayland this year and immediately I ran into issues with software that weren’t compatible, like Steamlink would not stream over Wayland, but switching back to X11 it streamed just fine. At least in my experience, Wayland itself is not the problem, but developers not supporting Wayland is the problem. The moment I run into just one program that I want to use that doesn’t work with Wayland, I am going to permanently switch back to X11. I think most users think that way. Most don’t want to switch back and forth to use a program, if a single program doesn’t work they will just revert to X11 and stay within X11.
Understandable, though in the case of Steamlink, I just stopped using Steamlink. Though my thought process was, I’d rather get a $30 dock for my Steam Deck then switch to X11 but I’m stubborn ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I’m the same with systemd. I’m aware it gets a lot of hate from people but I dunno, seems fine to me. It’s never given me any trouble that I can think of.
Avoiding systemd has never given me any trouble that I can think of either. [1]
Amen for choice.
Contrasts to the noise from those who insist we all have to use systemd, and that there’s something wrong with everything else so severe that systemd had to be made.
OpenRC or runit are my faves.
Still got half a dozen others to explore daily driving. Dinit and s66 next on my radar.
But runit’s too nice. ;)
[1: afterthought… oh, that’s not entirely true… the systemd infestation does make it harder to avoid entirely than it needs to be. Its butt-prints persist even in non-systemd distros. But thanks to other developers who favour retaining init-freedom, it can be done, without feeling any irritation or sting.]
There are still many things that don’t work on Wayland, which work perfectly fine on X11. If you don’t need any of them then Wayland is perfectly fine, but many people do need them.
For example programs can’t read from or interact with windows of other programs, so for example a time tracking application can’t work, or productivity scripts using xdotool don’t have a Wayland way to work.
Both of these use cases are needed to me.
Major desktop environments have an override for global interaction.
xdotoolhas been ported to kwin viakdotool.Any other imaginary problems standing in your way I can help dispel?
I would love for you to dispel the problem I wrote about: how to find the list of open windows (and whether they are focused or not), for time tracking. I don’t believe
kdotoolcan do that, from what I see.It can. I use a script that identifies windows by Caption (title) and manipulates them.
Maybe I can help you craft a similar one, or point you in the right direction?
Yeah what I need is an alternative to
xpropandxwininfo.
My main issue is the lack of xdotool support. It can’t ever be supported because of the way Wayland isolates processes from each other.
See https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277
When I was new here, it was XFree86 vs Xorg. (Showing my age).
There will be new technologies yet. And not all of them will successfully supplant/obsolete the older. Some of the older may even come back, despite (/ because of) the efforts made to eliminate them.
what the issues with Wayland are.
LMLLMTFY…
Here’s a concise summary of the main issues people have with Wayland:
- Compatibility: Many legacy X11 applications and workflows (e.g., screen recording, remote desktop, and some games) don’t work seamlessly under Wayland, requiring patches or workarounds.
- Screen Sharing/Recording: Wayland’s security model restricts direct screen access, making tools like OBS, Discord, or Zoom less reliable for screen sharing or recording.
- Multi-GPU/NVIDIA Support: Historically, NVIDIA’s proprietary drivers had poor Wayland support, though this has improved recently. Multi-GPU setups can still be problematic.
- Customization: Wayland compositors (like Weston, Sway, or GNOME’s Mutter) are less flexible than X11 window managers, limiting advanced user customization.
- Remote Desktop: X11’s network transparency (e.g., ssh -X) is missing in Wayland, requiring alternatives like RDP or VNC.
- Input Handling: Some users report issues with input latency, touchpad gestures, or keyboard layouts, especially in niche setups.
- Maturity: While Wayland is stable for most users, edge cases (e.g., hybrid graphics, VR, or professional audio/video tools) may still face bugs or missing features.
- Why it matters: Wayland aims to modernize Linux graphics with better security and performance, but the transition has been slow due to these pain points. Most major distros now default to Wayland, but power users and professionals often still rely on X11 (or XWayland for compatibility).
*shrug*. I guess that’ll do.
I’m >9000% more enthused for XLibre, and I utterly disregard the gaslighting associations some insist we believe about it, like community developed XLibre’s the fascist one, not Wayland spearheaded by a monopolistic corporation with nazi roots. XD
Edit:
PS, then I asked...
wayland’s more bloaty, and complicated, right? what with its extra compositor layer atop the server layer before the window manager layer, or whatever it is, right? (I dont really understand it… the complicatedness is more than i’ve got my head around, since not all methods of using it seem to have the same ontos/topos).
Your frustration is understandable—Wayland’s architecture can feel more complex than X11’s, but the “bloat” and “complication” are often misunderstood. Let’s clarify the layers and why it feels this way:
X11 vs. Wayland: Layer Comparison X11 (Simpler, but Monolithic)
- Single Layer: X11 combines the display server, window management, input handling, and compositing into one monolithic system.
- Pros: Easy to understand (one thing does everything).
- Cons: Security risks, poor performance, and inflexibility (e.g., compositing was bolted on later). Wayland (Modular, but Distributed) Wayland splits these responsibilities:
- Compositor (e.g., Weston, Mutter, KWin, Sway):
- Replaces X11’s “server” role.
- Handles rendering, input, and compositing directly.
- Acts as the “display server” and the “window manager” in one.
- Clients (Applications):
- Talk directly to the compositor via the Wayland protocol (no middleman like X11’s server).
- Protocols (e.g., wlroots, xdg-shell):
- Define how clients/compositors communicate (e.g., for window management, screensharing).
Key Difference:
- In X11, the “window manager” is a separate program (e.g., i3, Openbox) that talks to the X server.
- In Wayland, the compositor is the window manager (e.g., Sway = compositor + window manager).
Why It Feels More Complicated
- No Single “Wayland Server”:
- Unlike X11’s Xorg, there’s no one “Wayland server.” Each compositor (Mutter, KWin, Sway) implements Wayland differently.
- This can lead to inconsistencies (e.g., GNOME’s Wayland vs. Sway’s Wayland).
- Protocols Everywhere:
- Wayland uses protocols (like xdg-shell, viewporter, screencopy) for features X11 handled implicitly.
- Example: Screen sharing requires explicit protocol support (e.g., pipewire), while X11 just “let apps grab the screen.”
- Less “Magic”:
- X11 allowed hacks (e.g., xrandr, xinput) to work around limitations.
- Wayland enforces stricter rules (e.g., no direct GPU access for clients), which feels restrictive.
- Transition Pain:
- Tools like xrandr, xinput, or Xephyr don’t exist in Wayland. Replacements (e.g., wlr-randr, wayland-debug) are less standardized.
Is It More Bloaty?
-
No, but it’s more modular:
-
- Wayland itself is a protocol, not a program. The “bloat” comes from compositors adding features (e.g., GNOME’s Mutter vs. minimal Sway).
-
- X11’s “simplicity” was deceptive—it was a single binary, but it did everything poorly. Wayland distributes responsibilities more cleanly.
-
Example:
-
- X11: One process (Xorg) handles everything, often inefficiently.
-
- Wayland: The compositor (e.g., weston) does rendering, while pipewire handles screensharing, and libinput handles input.
TL;DR Wayland feels more complicated because:
- It replaces X11’s “one big blob” with explicit, modular components.
- The lack of a single “Wayland server” means behavior varies by compositor.
- Protocols replace X11’s implicit behaviors, requiring more setup for edge cases. But: This modularity is why Wayland is faster, more secure, and more maintainable long-term. The complexity is a tradeoff for fixing X11’s fundamental flaws.
___
I wonder how much of its training data was feeding on all the pro-wayland advertising spiel.
I’ve been using it on my laptop, and it’s been doing weird things that my X11 never did. It’s like rescaling or antialiasing or doing something with the fonts in my terminal while I’m using it. But, enough works that I’m gonna stick with it for now.
Also, I’m not able to use my preferred window manager XMonad under Wayland so far. Maybe at some point there will be a way to combine Wayland, KDE Plasma, and real window manager simply. (But, KDE Plasma has been getting more and more hostile to alternative window managers even on X11; I can’t been able to cleanly close my user session in months.)
There are little pockets of such things with everything I find. The “init wars” of systemd vs init/initd, Wayland vs xorg, Android vs iOS, Linux vs Windows/macOS, Xbox vs Playstation, Nintendo vs Sega, Vinyl vs everything not vinyl, RCS vs iMessage more recently to name a few.
Wayland is superior. Yeah I said it.
My gripe with wayland is how it made desktop environments less composable.
With x11 you could sort of mix and match your DE and WM. I could have all the “it just works” everyday computing from Gnome/KDE/xfce/whatever, and the workflow-boost from a Tiling WM. In some cases, making it work was a bodge but it worked.
Now, with Wayland, your WM is effectively your DE. It’s now a constant choice of “do I want tiling? Or do I want to print something, or be able to change my resolution, or to plug a USB stick and mount it without remembering the arcane incantations”.
I just want to be able to print something, and have virtual workspaces per monitor. I could live without tiling.
My current install was done using archinstall, selecting Gnome for the DE, then immediately installing hyprland once that was done. Don’t forget, a DE is mostly just a collection of applications.
Fucc yea.
Wayland lets me flawlessly use my 120Hz laptop screen @150% and my 60Hz external screen @100% together. X11 has never been and never will be able to do that.
I can’t get it to work. I get “no signal” on my monitor after logging in. It’s so weird.
That is just like your opinion man - the dude
Unless you want to pass alt tab to another computer on Rustdesk etc.
I do that all the time on Wayland. I have three virtual displays, each with a TigerVNC client session connected to three other computers whose monitors I can see so I can pass my cursor seamlessly across six displays (across four different computers). Once I click in any of them, all key combos go into that instance, which is exactly what I want.
Why tho?
Well one of them is for work communication, two are for dashboards that occasionally need to be poked, one is for swap space, and two are vertical monitors where the actual work happens.
Not my Linux community. The fascist right doesn’t make up all the linux community. They are just the loudest snowflakes in it.
The fuck does politics have to do with anything about this post? Sounds like the left are the loudest snowflakes around these parts of Lemmy, can’t accept a simple meme as is without dragging politics into it.
Are you angry that someone is critical of fascists? I wonder why that would be.
Yeah you can call it annoyed, there is absolutely no reason for politics to be dragged into a non-political meme, the radical left of Lemmy can’t see how hypocritical they can be.
It’s because many of the people who hate on Rust and Wayland do so because they think these technologies are somehow too “woke” and not for any technical reason. I have no actual numbers for this though, it’s just anecdotal based on my experience with a few popular YouTube videos I came across. And it looks like lots of others agree, so this meme comes off as political, even if that’s not what was intended.
Oh, I thought the implication was that the imposition of rust and wayland were fascist. Particularly wayland, with the corporation, IBM, and its ruthless efforts to eliminate the competition and force everybody off X11.
Either way, choice is good. It’s part of, and product of, Free Software philosophy.
Found one!
Sorry bud, but arguing over the policy of whether Rust is allowed in the kernel is arguing about politics. We’re sorry we got politics in your policy debate.
Most complaint against Rust is fucking culture war, not technical, so people who actually have technical concerns with Rust are being lumped together with Brian Lunduke and others.
I think it’s silly to be against Rust code in the kernel because it’s not C or whatever. Though I do agree with the criticisms of Rust projects shipping with the MIT license instead of GPL.
I hate the culture war stuff. I also hate that the Rust core utils rewrite was done under an MIT license instead of GPL.
A gain of memory safety with a poison pill of permissive licensing is no gain at all.
How is MIT poisonous? It’s still FOSS
Until it isn’t. MIT is permissive and allow to use code for commercial or military use. GPL work have to stay GPL
That free work for corpo
GPL does not prevent using code for commercial or military use. Commerce and military deserve freedom in their computing too. ;)
It’s perhaps more accurate to say GPL (and all copyleft licenses) be free and free alike, whereas MIT (and all permisive licenses) be free to unfree.
Copyleft free software licenses keep the FAIF (Free as in freedom).
Permissive free software licenses only assure the original avails the same freedom to the users.
So yeah, better to stay on the copyleft side of free software licensing, if wanting to ensure it stays assuring users of their 4 freedoms, to use, study, share and change the software, such that released changes are shared with the same freedoms, not with extra restrictions tacked-on like can more easily happen with permissive licenses.
… And it’s right to feel ones tin-foil hat get itchy, when there’s such a replacement plan coming from the corporations, like they’re gearing for a future total usurpation.
GPL code can also be used for commercial and military use. What are you smoking where you think that is even remotely true? Genuinely asking. It feels like people on your side of the argument have all learned what you have from the same, ill informed source.
GPL impose that derivative work is GPL, not MIT. Indeed, a commercial and a military use could embed work under GPL licence, but I suppose to point ou which part is under GPL. Which is more complicated than MIT, that you could use and label under any licence you want.
I agree that it suppose that those organisations give a shit about law (clearly, they don’t), however a GPL infraction could be used against those organisation, next to other infractions for a trial and type of of actions.
If I’m a military supplier of nukes to the government, I can freely use GPL and there’s no legal issue with that. You cannot request the nuclear launch software or the guidance control software even if they use GPL licensed code within it. Why? Because they don’t distribute said code to the public. If you develop something for private use, and it never gets a public release there’s no obligation or requirement to release the source! This is especially true for a government contractor that only makes software for a single customer (the government).
I think we’re agreeing that your claim was nonsense at this point, but I still don’t understand where people get these strange ideas about how GPL stops commercial or military use outside of very specific and frankly niche ways. If this is your reason for preferring GPL, it’s poorly thought out.
In purely private (or internal) use—with no sales and no distribution—the software code may be modified and parts reused without requiring the source code to be released. For sales or distribution, the entire source code needs to be made available to end users, including any code changes and additions—in that case, copyleft is applied to ensure that end users retain the freedoms defined above.
Rust is fucking culture war
I’ve worked with a lot of devs. I’ve seen a group of devs invent a new language to keep from having to learn a new off-the-shelf language.
I’ve seen devops rip out entire working systems and work on replacement python for months rather than coming up to speed on existing stuff.
It honestly think a lot of it comes from the poor perception of starting over from scratch on someone else’s code vs on your own code.
I dont know about “most”.
I guess it largely depends where one looks, to pick up that kind of perception.
There are technical discussions out there.
There’s much I admire about rust (viewed from afar, yet to even try coding anything in it yet), some of it tugs me away from my beloved Haskell, and then some of it repels me again. And regardless of either, there are aspects that cause chagrin about it being put in things like the linux kernel and replacements for coreutils, and other essential things, not least of which is how much further that takes us away from curt bytecode. Cant really do the likes of tinycore so easily with rustification, afaiu. But I understand many aspects are very alluring to coders. And then a lot of it gets overhyped… with over-eager premature implementation, causing harms, including to perceptions of rust. Gently does it. Tortoise wins the race.
As in Rust = gay kind of culture war? I’m so OOTL. Please help
Rust was among the first more well known projects, which adopted a Code of Conduct, then grifters in the OSS community cried censorship, which made people flock to it to “own the right”. Even if I think it’s an overrated marriage of flesh between C and OCaml, Code of Conducts are generally a good thing, and the people who really like toxic callouts arre more of an anomaly, and likely were flown there due to the culture war stuff.
People hate rust because of its fences/training wheels, not because it’s “woke”
…actually I just saw someone in this very comment section ranting about “soydevs”, you’re not wrong. But there are valid complaints too! Some of us are just old and think our computers should do whatever we tell them up to and including “shit yourself and catch fire”
The whole reason I use Linux is to shit myself and catch fire.
Fucking up is part of the fun. Y’all remember when computers used to be fun?
But there are valid complaints too! Some of us are just old and think our computers should do whatever we tell them up to and including “shit yourself and catch fire”
I agree with this, but I think rust is fine here. It has
unsafeas a keyword that let’s you do the breaking stuff, it just makes sure you know you’re doing something dangerous and makes it stand out for code reviewersOh no, I bet you there’s a fair few who think rust is woke and deeply connecting with programming socks --> it should be cancelled.
IMO it’s also an ideological fit for the current right wingers who connect Rust to progress and use progress as an insult. Since they can’t fight Rust on its merits, they have to make up whatever argument they can that fits their narrative.
I feel like you either didn’t read my comment or have been smoking a little too much weed lol
Somehow yes. It started as reasonable criticism but people like Brian Lunduke have somehow interpreted C and X as “conservative” while rust and wayland as “progressive.”
He was even criticising rust projects for “having too many people with anime profile pictures” in one of my youtube recommendations.
Nah, I strongly believe the ones who are so butthurt by this are the developer equivalent of NIMBYs
I dunno. I still don’t use Wayland, but I have no problem with people developing for it.
I just don’t want Xorg to die, we’d lose many cool desktop environments and window managers
Nothing dies in Linux. But it might lose support from the mainline kernel (for xorg, it may take another 50 years).
What no systemd?
Why are we afraid of systemd again? /gen
I came in late w/ arch-based systems so legitimately don’t know the lore.
Off the top of my head, in no particular order:
- Systemd and its components are responsible for too many essential system functions. Init, services, mounts, timers, logging, network config, hostname, DNS resolution, locale, devices, home directories, boot, NTP sync, and I’m sure there are others, can be handled by systemd or one of its components.
- Systemd violates the UNIX philosophy of “do one thing and do it well”. Systemd is a complex solution to a complex problem: this thread has several comments by a former Arch Linux maintainer that explains why they’ve switched to systemd, and why the earlier method of using single initscripts was unsustainable.
- It is owned and maintained by Red Hat, known for its many controversies.
- Some people just don’t like modern things and think that the Linux ecosystem peaked in the 1980s.
Most (though not all) of the popular complaints are completely unreasonable. Those people usually see themselves as moral and righteous and expect the world at large to follow their personal creed. I especially consider the UNIX philosophy to be outdated, and strict adherence to it to be an obstacle for modern apps and systems.
I have some issues with systemd, and I don’t like that one for-profit company has such a massive influence over the entire Linux ecosystem, but I have to acknowledge that it works, it works well enough to counter my personal issues, and that the people whose opinion matters the most (specifically Debian and Arch maintainers) chose it for a good reason.
My personal reasons for disliking systemd (note: I still use systemd):
- The lead developer of systemd has said multiple times that we should be fine with break POSIX if it means developing faster.
- systemd has massive attack surface, making it easier to exploit and result in privilege escalation. It is a highly complex and large codebase that really shouldnt be given the trust of PID 0
- systemd is not portable or modular.
- It only just barely got musl support. Hope to see it improve in the future.
- systemd is much slower than other inits (eg. dinit, s6, openrc)
- systemd being the go-to init encourages developers to more heavily depend on it, making it difficult for distros without systemd
The biggest feature I like about systemd is run0, though I wish it was a drop in replacement for sudo. Secondly, I do like that services can be sandboxed.
The lead developer of systemd has said multiple times that we should be fine with break POSIX if it means developing faster.
I mean, so does GNU.
And I dont like GNU even more than systemd lol.
- It’s developed for linux and there is literally 0 linux distributions that are POSIX-compliant, also standard is dead.
- It doesn’t, also moving it to any other PID won’t make any difference.
- It is modular (IIRC there is only three mandatory parts) and portable.
- Was completely on musl side (also musl is as much not portable and modular as systemd 🙃 and in every practical way worse than glibc).
- It’s not an init, nor does it present itself like this. Do you have any benchmarks that show this slowness when doing comparable operations?
- Why exactly depending on a stable system component is a bad thing? Distros without systemd are moving against the stream, obviously there going to be some problems.
For me the portability issue wasn’t really solved. I still work on embedded devices where I need to squeeze out every cycle and every byte of memory i can. Running systemd is an automatic no go, but in the *nix way of doing things I do have other options, so that’s good.
But the more people depend on the systemd ecosystem rather than an open standard, the availability for me to use other projects goes down. Again there are usually options, but it’s sad to see no one really thought about that when everyone jumped on board.
I also love the BSDs and other Unix systems. I remember decades ago downloading FreeBSD on my Gentoo box and was able to load the same Gnome desktop on both systems. Two totally different operating systems running the same UI. It sucks that targeting systemd might make software not run on other *nix operating systems
That’s pretty niche use-case devices that can run linux but at the same tume limited enough that systemd is the bottleneck. I do get it that running systemd on some embedded devices makes little sense.
Systemd has stable API so nothing stops other systems from implementing parts of it that interest them, thing is, *bsds aren’t interested or resource constrained so much that they can’t.
it’s honestly not that niche. it’s just not a use case that hobbiest run into. there is a lot of devices in your house or in your life running linux and you just never think about it. none of the devs of these devices are loud about systemd because we are hand crafting distros ourselves so dealing with scripts in an init system is the least of our worries.
Systemd has stable API
yes, now it does as an afterthought. it wasn’t a public standard, seeking comment. no taking input from other developers. systemd was created to solve a problem distro were having, a system manager that is plug and play and makes everything just work. it is a good problem to solve, it’s one of the few reasons that so many distros exist.
But there are tons of design choices that had very narrow views. Polkit, logind and the rest of credential management come to mind as something that needs a lot of massaging if you are rolling your own distro. When running a non-systemd distro there are often pain points getting apps and services that need to have a wider reach or interact with other priviledged code. none of it makes the system any more secure, just more of a pain in the ass.
Those people usually see themselves as moral and righteous and expect the world at large to follow their personal creed.
If they don’t like systemd but are forced to use it for some reason, I can understand why they might have some negative feelings
Once I switched to a distro with OpenRC, I stopped feeling the need to argue about systemd
You are forced to use a lot of things bit systemd is where you draw a line? 😺
I see from your other comment in the thread that you’re enthusiastic about systemd, and that’s great.
I’m glad we inhabit a software ecosystem broad enough that we can both be happyI’m not enthusiastic about it, I’m just old enough to remeber how bad were good old times before systemd and a bit miffed how old and untrue statements about it are perpetuated.
I was a long-time Linux user at the time of the systemd switchover.
Your memories of the good old times are your own
Now I want a shirt that says “Linux ecosystem peaked in 1980s”
Wasn’t Linux first released in like 1993?
1991 and yes, that why it would be so great. It would trigger so many linux users
Some people just don’t like modern things and think that the Linux ecosystem peaked in the 1980s.
Linux was released in 1991.
It’s a little known fact that the first answer to Linus’ first message announcing his new OS was “You stupid thing, why did you created it? It ruined it! Linux was better before!”.
It’s called a hyperbole.
(edit) But, honestly, it’s still kind of accurate. Many of the most significant software suites that define the Linux ecosystem in more recent decades were written in the 80s or earlier. X (the display protocol) was released in 1984, and X11 in 1987. GNU Emacs was released in 1985. Vi, in 1976. UNIX System V, from which
sysvinitand compatible init systems were adopted, was released in 1983. It’s not a stretch to say that certain people want to regress to the 1980s state, even if the kernel wasn’t around.Funny thing is, nothing in the list adheres to the so called unix philosophy.
systemd DOES do one thing really well. Too well. It’s a service manager.
People noticed that it works really well as a framework for their stuff and started plugging all the other stuff in your first bullet point into it. And that also worked really well.
Systemd is controlled by redhat and is a very large part of the Linux stack. It’s become so universal that a lot random stuff won’t work unless the system has systemd.
Compared to X11 to wayland or pulseaudio to pipewire it’s a lot hard to now replace an init system and with that in the hands of redhat which is for profit is not a nice thought.
But you know, fuck it, having systemd is a massive headache for people making distros that’s just gone. Everyone is using the same thing and things just work so people aren’t really complaining. If redhat tries some shenanigans there’ll always be a fork or a systemd compatible init system or even whatever Alpine is using now that’ll take it’s place.
You guys just discuss this using systemd like nothing is wrong!
Alright grandma let’s get you to bed
Dualboot devuan and void. Do it.
Or Alpine and Gentoo! Do it now!
Or Artix, everyone forgets bleeding edge no-systemd
I live programs written in rust. They are quick & lightweight & fun.
Know what i hate ? Installing rust programs with cargo. It’s slow & grinds my Chromebook to a halt.
Average C from source experience: (copied from Kicad)
apt get long list of dependency git clone cd cmake make sudo make install rm -r .Average Rust from source experience:
cargo installMost of the time you should probably not install from source of possible.
I try not to build from source often. My computer is a potato.
Then why do you need cargo in the first place, sir? You install a program written i Rust just as if it isn’t. When you
apt install xzy, you don’t even know what language is used to program it.And if the developer only publishes the source?
What if the developer of this C program only publishes the source code? Evil?
I think that’s valid as well.
OK, apologies, I’ll stop taking weird.
The developer is only supposed to share his code. It’s the distro’s responsibility to provide binary build of famous programs so that most users don’t have to compile. When they don’t, it’s inevitable that individual users have to build it themselves. This has been the norm for decades.
I mean, that’s not a Rust issue per se. It’s only noticeable because
cargois much better than most build systems, and hence is an actual option for distribution of software. But there should ideally always be a binary distribution. I know some people like to build everything by themselves, but I get it, it’s annoying.Okay so, this is less a line in the sand and more a 14 foot concrete wall topped with razor wire and guarded by marines with rifles with fixed bayonets in the sand:
I will not install an end-user application using Cargo, and I will say many mean things to anyone who suggests it.
Python’s Pip or Pypi or PyPy whichever it is (Both of those are the names of two different things and no one had their head slammed into a wall for doing that; proof that justice is a fictional concept) I can almost accept. You could almost get me drunk enough to accept distributing software via Python tooling, because Python is an interpreted language, whether you ship me your project as a .exe, a .deb, a flatpak, whatever, you’re shipping me the source code. Also, Python is a pretty standard inclusion on Linux distros, so Pip is likely to be present.
Few if any distros ship with Rust’s toolset installed, and the officially recommended way to install it, this is from rust-lang.org…is to pipe curl into sh. Don’t ask end users to install a programming language to compile your software.
Go ahead and ask your fellow developers to compile your software; that’s how contributing and forking and all that open source goodness should be done. But not end users. Not for “Install and use as intended.” For that, distribute a compiled binary somehow; at the very least a dockerfile if a service or an appimage if an application. Don’t make people who don’t develop in Rust install the Rust compiler.
Pypi isn’t in any way less an option for distributing software countless projects that use it that way can be used as a proof. Hell, awscli installed from pypi for ages. In my experience cargo is extremely slow at downloading hundred libraries that every program needs and rustc is extremely slowly builds them.
Correction, uv isn’t in any way less an option. pypi is only the registry. If you are using pip you will end up in dependency hell, you might use something like poetry to avoid that, but uv is just better.
But… wait a minute… uv is inspired by cargo, and it’s also written in rust. That’s quite the coincidence, huh?
Also, cargo is fast, it’s rustc that’s slow, and that’s because rustc is doing advanced code analysis. Compiling rust is actually NP-hard, but in exchange for that, the compiler will catch bugs in place of the developer. Which is a good tradeoff considering that you only compile once and run many times.
“countless projects that use it that way” isn’t proof of anything. Countless projects tell you to
curla 2000 lines script intosudo bashthat will fill your os with bullshit.Pip is a sane default that works for absolute majority of cases, anyway correct tool for installing programs from pypi is pipx that eliminates ‘dependency hell’, but ofc new cool tool is the only way to do things.
When little program in rust that replaced previous one compiles two hours compared to previous that compiled in a few minutes it matters.
UV is a lot more than pipx. It installs applications from pypi, without dependency hell, but it also uses hard links when possible to avoid wasting space. But it’s also a dev tool. It manages python installations, workspaces, you can use it to edit the pyproject, it can also publish to pypi, even from a GitHub action if set up from pypi. It just does a lot more.
I know what uv is, also never felt the need for package manager do a lot more. Just not my use case, pip + pipx is enough for me. I do develop in python but I’m trying to do it as tidy as possible without any or minimal external deps due to environment constraints, maybe for web dev or other fields where there is a need to install billion external libraries and multiple versions of them uv is a right choice, who knows. Personally I would prefer first party tool.
Try
cargo-binstallIf you tell me to install an end-user facing application with a programming language’s package manager, I’m out. Like, Adafruit was at one point recommending a Python IDE for their own implementation of micropython called Mu, and the instructions were to install it with Pip. Nope. Not doing that.
Me: I wanna try this node program, how do I install it?
Node: Well first you need to download these 100 node packages using your system package manager before you can use my package manager.
Me: And then I can install node packages at the user-level?
Node: Oh you poor sweet summer child. At the directory-level, of course!
Me: Oh okay. Is… is all this highly necc-
Node: It’s better this way.
I recently moved from X11 (BSPWM) to Wayland (Hyprland) and while I did get rid of a very annoying bug with bspwm, it did come with a few of its own quirks/annoyances:
- Hyprland does not yet have the ability to load ICC profiles
- Marking a monitor as variable refresh rate capable forces my GPU to idle at maximum clocks and draw 100W (this one really makes me wtf, but it is nvidia so idk who to blame here)
- Dragging and dropping can be very unreliable for some windows (IIRC, only with Chromium based applications so far)
- Some apps deadlock when attempting to read the clipboard (Again, only Chromium based applications so far)
- EDIT: Maybe a recent update fixed it, however I also just switched
wl-clip-persistfromregularorprimarymode (I can’t remember) toboth. Either way, the issue appears to be gone now.
- EDIT: Maybe a recent update fixed it, however I also just switched
Maybe if I wasn’t a masochist and installed something normal, such as KDE, I wouldn’t have any of these issues. However, I apparently and unfortunately get great pleasure out of plopping my testicles onto an anvil and smashing them like a blacksmith forges raw iron.
Rust, however, is cool. I like Rust. I can’t say that I approve of replacing everything under the sun with a Rust rewrite for no good reason, but the language itself is fine.
Even with KDE, Wayland isn’t ready yet. There are plenty of small annoynces for me, especially with the clipboard. Zoom doesn’t work right - screen sharing in general hangs the whole gui.
Lots of X based tools don’t have a good replacement yet. gpick, xkill, xclip, ssh -X, etc…
Wayland needs more time in the oven, there are so many things missing like accessibility stuff & let’s not even get into the bugs. Your Wayland setup works on your system ? "That’s great*.
I’ve been using it since 2016 and the only issue I’ve had (which has been fixed for a while now) was screen sharing in Discord.
It’s true that there are a couple of things missing or unstandardised as of now, but there’s also plenty missing from X11, so it’s swings and roundabouts.
I’ve used it for 5 years without issue
Whenever someone mentions accessibility to shit on Wayland, but doesn’t actually give a single detail about which kind, they’re always concern trolling and aren’t actually missing anything themselves.
What a Cute opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgWLKcYpLBk
This is just the start, I wasn’t even craping on Wayland, but you nutjobs want to start beef with a stranger over how great Wayland is. We can spend all day picking apart how much of a cunt Wayland people are. Take your pick.
Also I am naturally suspicious when corporations push a certain “OpenSource” kit way too much.
Games and streaming on Gnome wayland is just very buggy compared to x11. Alt-tabbing out of a game is gauranteed to have issues, such as windows no longer updating, or windows flickering. It just is what it is.
Gaming and streaming is not “buggy on Wayland”, this is vibes bullshit.
Whatever, keep telling yourself it’s bug free and keep living in your fairy-tale.
This isn’t a concern of what might be or hearsay, it is buggy.
I’ll try and record it, if it doesn’t crash of course. There’s things I know that will crash with certainty so I avoid these actions which is pretty damn annoying. These didn’t occur on gnome x11 because I do this often, I had no such issues there, so it’s not vibes.
Stop spreading your wishful thinking as facts and sugarcoating things for whatever reason.
I stream gaming to Twitch almost every day from Wayland and used to do it from X11, so cut the bullshit about fairy tales.
What you are describing is a skill issue based on vibes. You can’t even be bothered to cite a real problem. Give me a break.
such as windows no longer updating, or windows flickering
Learn to read, this was in my first post.
Ignoring the first part of my reply where I tell you I stream and game from Wayland is certainly one way to remain ignorant.
Congratulations. Your system is bug free. I just sat my system down and told them about yours and they promised to try harder.
What am I even supposed to do with that? You’re one of those guys working at an internal helpdesk replying “it works on my machine” and closing tickets.
You made a claim that Wayland is buggy when you stream and game. I told you I do both of these daily.
What an intelligent person would do is recognize that they misunderstood the problem, and that it was their particular setup that had an issue, not Wayland, because you’ve got someone clearly stating it works just fine.
Expectedly, you realized it was a “you” issue enough to get mad, but not hold yourself accountable. Par for course based on the original claim.
Might just br a gnome issue and not a wayland one, KDE and wlroots based compositors do much better at fullscreening and alt-tabbing games then x11 ever did for me. Esspecially on my desktop that has a second monitor
I can’t alt-tab at all out of fullscreen games on Wayland. My workaround is to send the game to another desktop. Annoying.
I have really bad problems with KDE Fedora and multiple monitor gaming. I have to disable my second monitor in shooters or Iget really bad focus stealing issues. Any advice you can share?
Also using fedora kde :D
I’ve just never encountered a problem with focus stealing or alt-tab issues and leave my drawing tablet/second display plugged in. My friend who runs side by side monitors also has no problems on their arch kde setup. Might just be a weird hardware+application combination problem for some
Edit: try digging in the kde focus settings, I think theres an option to tune focus steeling
I literally can not find the focus settings. It’s driving me insane. That’s what the ole’google turned up, and there isn’t an option for it in the standard settings.
@bernhoftbret You forgot systemd
I think everyone has moved on at this point. Systemd became the standard more than a decade ago
Yeah, well I’m still afraid of it
are you
[ OK ] piss_baby.service?libpissbabyis hella bloated
